so i have gotten into arguements with my wife in the past about this cult.
now a days after reading steve hassan books...i just try and avoid anything jdub with her.
try to keep her in authentic mode..(not sure she really has one).
Ephesians 2:9- Written by the Apostle Paul...."For it is by grace you have been saved through faith and this is not from ourselves, it is the gift of God...NOT BY WORKS, so that no one can boast."
There it is...clear as crystal. Works will NOT save you. You can work all you like....it is futile....
so manipulaitve.
.
http://www.printcentralandsigns.com/jwtalks/covisits/sinutko%20charles%20-%20is%20it%20proper%20to%20have%20doubts.mp3.
hey guys.
my grandpa died recently, for a reason i told my jw friends about it.
and they literally didn't say anything about it at moved on to another subject like nothing happened.
with hopefully a good deal of interest here in the conti appeal tomorrow (or later today, depending on where you are), i thought that on my ride home from work tonight i'd preview what to expect and what i think the key issues are for any who are interested.
i have had a busy few weeks and haven't had time to read everything, but i had some time to look at the appeal briefs during my work commute the past couple days.
it'll be interesting to see what develops out of the network news coverage of this case.
One of the most telling things about this entire appeal is the effort on the part of the WT lawyer to distance the ORG from the actual relationship that appears to exist in the congregation. The elders, in my opinion, have always been an agent of the ORG. The ORG, at least at the time these events occurred, was in charge of appointing and removing through their representative, the CO. The CO was not in charge, he was the middle-man, simply there to ensure that procedure was followed-through. When their appointment came in, there was a little green check next to their name, not put there by the CO but by someone at the Service Desk, the ORG's service desk.
Today, that system has changed. Probably because of the expected back lash from this case or others. Now, the CO is solely in charge. It will be his name, his liability on the line.
There are those on this page that are JW apologists, that is obvious. They hold true to the belief that the ORG can do no wrong. They believe that the ORG has only the best interests of the "brothers" in mind, I would hope that this was the case. They forget, however, that we are talking about a huge, money driven ORG with legal and financial liabilities. One can argue that they are simply trying to protect the Lord's earthly assets, and that argument is valid to some degree. But, interestingly, the "Lord" that I have read about didn't care much for earthly treasures......
I hope, for Candace's sake, that the ORG is found to have had a special relationship. If that is the case, then we should see some extreme changes in policy. That, if we all remember, is really all Candace was hoping to achieve.
with hopefully a good deal of interest here in the conti appeal tomorrow (or later today, depending on where you are), i thought that on my ride home from work tonight i'd preview what to expect and what i think the key issues are for any who are interested.
i have had a busy few weeks and haven't had time to read everything, but i had some time to look at the appeal briefs during my work commute the past couple days.
it'll be interesting to see what develops out of the network news coverage of this case.
@ Nitty Gritty
I wont ask that cause as you know the ORG is all that matters to a witness. Having been an elder, when two brothers had a business dealing that went awry, the counsel given by the ORG has been that of the apostle Paul, that, essentially, matters be dealt with "in house." Back when these events occurred, from my perspective, there was a mentality of keeping it "in house". There are many people that would probably attest to the pressure put on them of not disclosing these type of events to other members of the congregation for fear that they would be deemed "slanderers" because of the two-witness rule. It is a shame that this type of mentality existed back then. It IS a question of protection by the elders NOT the police, NOT the CTS. When you teach people that all they need is found within the confines of the spiritual paradise, you tell them that they should approach the elders for counsel on everything from marital problems to depression and then you throw your hands up in front of the court and say we have no special relationship...something is quite wrong.
with hopefully a good deal of interest here in the conti appeal tomorrow (or later today, depending on where you are), i thought that on my ride home from work tonight i'd preview what to expect and what i think the key issues are for any who are interested.
i have had a busy few weeks and haven't had time to read everything, but i had some time to look at the appeal briefs during my work commute the past couple days.
it'll be interesting to see what develops out of the network news coverage of this case.
It all comes down to what you know and when you knew it, then....what you chose to do about it.....
Anyone on this forum that blames Candace for anything is an idiot, good touch, bad touch, whatever. Every parent has the obligation to teach their kids about such things, but blame the kid if they are manipulated...idiot.
The appellate court has a lot to work with here.....I am hoping that they will confirm the lower court decision. There are so many organizations out there where concern over perception is more important than virtue.
In all of this, ask yourselves one question, How interested were the elders in Fremont with the well-being of Kendricks step-daughter? That may have some bearing on why they chose not to warn others....
in a recent meeting with elders, an argument was used to the effect that jehovah has always [= throughout history] used, or operated through, an organization; therefore, the wts must be that organization today, since god must be using one.
naturally, i know what arguments i've used to counter that argument.
but i'm interested in hearing yours.
Better yet, when the new and improved understanding of the F&DS entered the picture, the org stated that from the death of the last apostle until the selection of the modern day FD&S there was no real organization running the show....you can't have it both ways.
Same vein different point, You can't say that the Catholic Church is an apostate church and in the same breath say that they were responsible for the canonization of the bible...... If God entrusted them with the selection and protection of his word, then weren't THEY the chosen organization AND if they were considered apostate PRIOR to the formal canonization of scripture.....then God trusts apostates.
i have noticed an apparently increasing number of men who are not interested in becoming ministerial servants or elders.
i also know of some that have voluntarily stepped down (which is my case) for no obvious solid reason.. i remember, during my teenage years or even during my twenties, the brothers were always looking forward to being appointed... although many still do, i have noticed there are many others with whom you do not know what the deal is.. since there is no freedom of speech within the organization, we remain in the dark about the motives and desires of everybody else.
i attend a congregation with only two ministerial servants, while it is full of men who do not seem to be willing to do more.. it is hard to tell exactly what is going on, since honesty is not possible while you are inside, but i am starting to think that more and more are becoming disillusioned.... .
A lot of young people have an innate Cost/Benefit analysis function. The costs of serving far outweigh the benefits.....you don't have to have a Masters in statistics to see that.
i was thinking about this today, after seeing another thread on the subject of serving in israel, of all places.
there have been many comments on the recent thread, and the ones a little older, about how utterly ridiculous that premise is.. the bigger question is why do i have to apply?
permission?
I think I have the answer.....
Last week, at the meeting, a young man got up on stage and gave a talk. He did well. He wasn't MLK or even Anthony Morris III, but he did well. The School Overseer praised him excessively too much in fact. But, I understood why. You see, in our hall, very few of the kids do anything at all. Yes, they attend with their families, but their expressions are of boredom and passive acceptance. This kid, on the other hand, is fully invested and its visible. He is taking that JW road and waiting to see where it will take him. From a secular viewpoint, he has some problems, a little self absorbed and spoiled, with just a little too much sarcasm around the edges. From that secular viewpoint, he would be a below average to average kid on the outside. But here, here is the make believe world, he is "the best" (thank you Nacho Libre).
The "Application" process of the JWs serves to make the average...unique, even special. When you are "approved" then all the boxes have been checked and others can see that you are the kind of witness that other witnesses should be. You have the good housekeeping seal of approval and others wish they can have it as well. It is all part of the indoctrination into the BORG.
do we understand these three words: worship, idolatry, and blasphemy?.
most christians have a vague notion of worship, idolatry, and blasphemy already, but.
a clear definition is necessary.. we must take care to differentiate, however.. how the words appear in original language and how they are defined today might be at odds.. ____________________.
It is hard to place yourself on a throne while you are living on this earth and expect that people will not kiss your ring. Funny how the GB keep telling the R&F that treating the brothers of Jesus is what will gain them salvation......blasphemy indeed!
